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smg8
Posted: 11 March 2025 09:26:51(UTC)

Joined: 26/04/2020(UTC)
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NPH;337196 wrote:
About 3 week ago I started a thread on whether it was time to look beyond the global tracker, as Vanguard published research predicting lower returns from US large caps and given the US/large cap concentration risk even in global funds.
The response was that the research was 'toilet paper', that 100% risk on was the way to go, etc.
Now the US markets have fallen back to where they were about 6 months ago, and some people have liquidated their entire portfolios and are talking about a generational loss of wealth.
I'm starting to think this forum isn't the source of sober, helpful comment I was hoping for.


There are probably a few things to keep in mind here;

1. Vanguard's paper was about what things might look like over 10 years. Not 3 weeks. I'd probably give it a bit longer to see if they were right. As per the examples given in that thread, most of Vanguards past predictions have been inaccurate over the timescale they chose

2. There were some pretty sensible replies to that thread from other posters who looked at both sides of the coin, looking back it was a good thread. There were some suggested alternatives to "100% risk on".

3. There was 1 poster who said it was toilet paper. The same poster beings up faecal matters quite regularly, often describing things or people as sh*t.

4. My proper response to your question (beyond looking at Vanguard's past predictions for accuracy) stated that some regions will outperform a tracker but you'd need to know in advance which ones to buy. That appears to have come true YTD (but again who knows over 10 years). As an aside I dont have the skill to know this, but I do hold a multi asset fund who use passives and come up with their own global allocation as one of my risk reducers. They're in positive territory YTD due to their big underweight US. Kudos to them too, in their strategic asset allocation review end of last year they moved some of their US holding to equal weight.

5. I also said
smg8;335593 wrote:


If the market delivers 5%, some active funds will absolutely beat that figure guaranteed - but others will lag behind.



If you go on Trustnet and sort global funds by YTD there are 21 pages of results. On page 10, halfway through you get to a global tracker. So as per my comment, if you pick in advance an active which outperforms you're ahead. If you pick the wrong active you're behind. Same goes for this 10 week YTD period.

Personally I am surprised to see posters liquidating their portfolios, especially when just 2 weeks ago some of the same posters going to cash literally posted saying they welcomed a correction and that they were hoping the market goes lower to enable them to buy more.

It's curious seeing the panic when volatility hits, but I think we can learn valuable lessons from it around understanding our actual risk appetite rather than kidding ourselves.

100% invested in global equities to 100% cash and timing reentry seems miles away from a long term sustainable strategy, when there are a myriad of stopping points along the way between those 2 extremities.
23 users thanked smg8 for this post.
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OmegaMale
Posted: 11 March 2025 09:42:19(UTC)

Joined: 02/07/2020(UTC)
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Back in the last century everything was done by post. It took several weeks to collect some data sheets, make a decision and then carry out a purchase by post. You then got an annual valuation (or perhaps 6 monthly). That is investing.

Buying or selling every time the orange one signs an executive order with his marker pen is trading.

OM (Currently about 3% down and doing nothing until next tax year)
7 users thanked OmegaMale for this post.
Sheerman on 11/03/2025(UTC), Martina on 11/03/2025(UTC), Busy doing nothing on 11/03/2025(UTC), dlp6666 on 11/03/2025(UTC), Chalky W on 11/03/2025(UTC), mcminvest on 11/03/2025(UTC), Jesse M on 11/03/2025(UTC)
NPH
Posted: 11 March 2025 09:42:34(UTC)

Joined: 26/01/2014(UTC)
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smg8;337208 wrote:
NPH;337196 wrote:
About 3 week ago I started a thread on whether it was time to look beyond the global tracker, as Vanguard published research predicting lower returns from US large caps and given the US/large cap concentration risk even in global funds.
The response was that the research was 'toilet paper', that 100% risk on was the way to go, etc.
Now the US markets have fallen back to where they were about 6 months ago, and some people have liquidated their entire portfolios and are talking about a generational loss of wealth.
I'm starting to think this forum isn't the source of sober, helpful comment I was hoping for.


There are probably a few things to keep in mind here;

1. Vanguard's paper was about what things might look like over 10 years. Not 3 weeks. I'd probably give it a bit longer to see if they were right. As per the examples given in that thread, most of Vanguards past predictions have been inaccurate over the timescale they chose

2. There were some pretty sensible replies to that thread from other posters who looked at both sides of the coin, looking back it was a good thread. There were some suggested alternatives to "100% risk on".

3. There was 1 poster who said it was toilet paper. The same poster beings up faecal matters quite regularly, often describing things or people as sh*t.

4. My proper response to your question (beyond looking at Vanguard's past predictions for accuracy) stated that some regions will outperform a tracker but you'd need to know in advance which ones to buy. That appears to have come true YTD (but again who knows over 10 years). As an aside I dont have the skill to know this, but I do hold a multi asset fund who use passives and come up with their own global allocation as one of my risk reducers. They're in positive territory YTD due to their big underweight US. Kudos to them too, in their strategic asset allocation review end of last year they moved some of their US holding to equal weight.

5. I also said
smg8;335593 wrote:


If the market delivers 5%, some active funds will absolutely beat that figure guaranteed - but others will lag behind.



If you go on Trustnet and sort global funds by YTD there are 21 pages of results. On page 10, halfway through you get to a global tracker. So as per my comment, if you pick in advance an active which outperforms you're ahead. If you pick the wrong active you're behind. Same goes for this 10 week YTD period.

Personally I am surprised to see posters liquidating their portfolios, especially when just 2 weeks ago some of the same posters going to cash literally posted saying they welcomed a correction and that they were hoping the market goes lower to enable them to buy more.

It's curious seeing the panic when volatility hits, but I think we can learn valuable lessons from it around understanding our actual risk appetite rather than kidding ourselves.

100% invested in global equities to 100% cash and timing reentry seems miles away from a long term sustainable strategy, when there are a myriad of stopping points along the way between those 2 extremities.


Apologies to those who did post helpful comments, I was being slightly tongue in cheek about the wild swings in sentiment between two threads only 3 weeks apart.
4 users thanked NPH for this post.
smg8 on 11/03/2025(UTC), dlp6666 on 11/03/2025(UTC), mcminvest on 11/03/2025(UTC), Jesse M on 11/03/2025(UTC)
Robin B
Posted: 11 March 2025 09:45:21(UTC)

Joined: 01/04/2024(UTC)
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Dunno;337188 wrote:
Robin B;337166 wrote:
Sara G;337148 wrote:
SF100;337144 wrote:
[quote=Robin B;337142][quote=SF100;337138]
LoL
Can you keep your drivel to yourself please
This threads confusing enough as it is


If true this would be quite useful. The HSBC tracker is the cheapest, too, I believe. I'm confused by the back and forth between you both here. SF100, are you saying there's no difference in terms of dealing / valuation points between trackers? It would be useful to be able to discuss this without the topic being lost amid the personal insults.



SF100 seems to have had a fall out with his boyfriend, poor lad. Taking out his frustration on here...

He is probably right, although chose to put it across in a cryptic and confusing way.

It had also been my understanding that the valuation point would come after the dealing time, as per other funds, but when I phoned up HSBC Asset Management and asked, was told that if I bought by noon, that I'd get the previous day's valuation. I even repeated this back to the person as I was surprised by it. She wasn't a native English speaker but seemed fluent enough and confident, and confirmed that my understanding was correct.

I have been unable to check this against my own dealing records because of the way the information is presented so I will phone them again tomorrow and check. I will report back what I am told - if my post was incorrect I will say so in a new post, and apologise in advance if it is so.

The valuation points of funds can vary. E.g. the Vaguard all cap fund has a dealing deadline of 11am but is priced at 9pm GMT that day when the US markets close. A lot can happen in that time. Still, the principle is usually forward pricing.


Would be good to clarify this. Must admit from my own experience I think orders I’ve placed before noon, and I actually usually place them by 9am using iWeb, get dealt at the forthcoming valuation and not at the previous day’s valuation. The price currently showing for this fund is 315.23 as at 10 March, I don’t think you’ll get that if you put an order in this morning.


I have spoken again to HSBC Asset Management this morning and can clarify the situation.

Interestingly, the person I spoke to began by saying the exact same thing as was previously stated, however, there was an important detail added once I probed. When they explain that "it will be yesterday's valuation", what they really mean is that they provide that price as an estimate of what you will pay - which is today's price if you place your order in time. They provide yesterday's as a guide only.

Now there is still some further, very useful detail here about this fund, which does partly corroborate my previous points.

The dealing deadline today is at noon (GMT).
The valuation point for today is at noon (GMT). (HSBC team will know what this is at 1530hrs)

If you order in time this morning, you will get the price determined at noon today.

This means two things:

A) You can get a price determined at a point far closer to your order time (theoretically at the same time or within minutes), compared to the likes of Vanguard's FTSE Global All Cap.

B) Because the US markets won't have opened yet at the valuation point, you are effectively capturing yesterday's closing point in the US market - which makes up the majority of the fund in this case. This does provide a degree of predictability. I know that if I order by noon today, even though the morning activity in Europe and elsewhere is positive, I'm probably going to get a better price than yesterday or last week because the US closed noticeably lower yesterday. I get the majority of yesterday's market moves in effect.

I hope this is of help. I think for the above reasons that the HSBC fund is, by the standards of other OEICs, of a more predictable nature. Again, the Vanguard equivalent will not be valued until 10 hours after your order and following a whole day of US trading after you placed your order. This represents a significant difference.

This is one of those dry topics that, once explored further, reveals some very useful information to serve the average investor. And it is virtually impossible to find it by using Google or AI.
2 users thanked Robin B for this post.
Guest on 11/03/2025(UTC), lizafi on 11/03/2025(UTC)
MarkSp
Posted: 11 March 2025 09:47:50(UTC)

Joined: 02/02/2020(UTC)
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@smg8 - Excellent post.

@OP

I am a keen Bloomberg listener/viewer. There is a stream of house Straegists on there - the onlt thing I can be sure of is that they wont be seeing things the same way and they are there to get brand recognition for their empoyer.
vanguard don't have a great record for forecasting. They have made their rep through very simple and very cheap. When they start getting "active" they are somewhere at the back of the pack.
"Toilet paper" is an emotive phrase maybe but, IMPO, a 10 year macro forecast from anyone is probably less useful :)

the problem vanguard has is that as an index player, the indexes aren't reflective of the broad economies any longer. In the long term they are obviously overweight to the US and within the US overweight to a handful of stocks. they are not "a little of everything".

You will have to decide for yourself what is the global macro view and what is the impact of index construction and the Vanguard product portfolio.

The whole art of the long term game is staying balanced. I would argue that an imbalance has been building up that will rewind naturally but that will impact some indicies at the expense of others.

When a global tracker stops tracking the world and starts tracking a very small, very successful subset, you might want to act. In the long term, the imbalance will correct naturally as that is what passives do but, you will get a period of active outperformance over passives.
4 users thanked MarkSp for this post.
Sheerman on 11/03/2025(UTC), smg8 on 11/03/2025(UTC), mcminvest on 11/03/2025(UTC), Dexi on 11/03/2025(UTC)
Rookie Investor
Posted: 11 March 2025 10:22:46(UTC)

Joined: 09/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,087

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NPH;337196 wrote:
About 3 weeks ago I started a thread on whether it was time to look beyond the global tracker, as Vanguard published research predicting lower returns from US large caps and given the US/large cap concentration risk even in global funds.
The response was that the research was 'toilet paper', that 100% risk on was the way to go, etc.
Now the US markets have fallen back to where they were about 6 months ago, and some people have liquidated their entire portfolios and are talking about a generational loss of wealth.
I'm starting to think this forum isn't the source of sober, helpful comment I was hoping for.


That vanguard paper is still toilet paper - they do not seem to provide their models and assumptions to their forecasts and it appears they use arguments that do not have any or much relevance to what really drives stock market returns. Apparently they voiced their concern in similar papers back in 2015 I think that the US was expensive - and look where we are today!!!

But the rest of your post is absolutely true. Many do get anxious and have second thoughts on allocation on any sign of a big correction - and we are not even at a correction by definition of -10% yet on a global tracker.

I would be interested in the posts when we do get a large downturn, say more than 20%!

While this forum does have good discussions about asset allocation, active fund reviews, fundamental discussions on companies etc, I feel it has lost its way over the years and has become a lot more about divisionary politics, what the orange man will do, worship things and people like vanguard, Neil Woodford and Ray Dalio without critical thought etc.

I suspect as more seem to have piled into trackers, which by definition is value agnostic, there is more concern about market movements than otherwise - because active funds are run with value in mind.
1 user thanked Rookie Investor for this post.
bearcub on 11/03/2025(UTC)
Dunno
Posted: 11 March 2025 10:24:32(UTC)

Joined: 09/04/2024(UTC)
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Robin B;337217 wrote:
Dunno;337188 wrote:
Robin B;337166 wrote:
Sara G;337148 wrote:
SF100;337144 wrote:
[quote=Robin B;337142][quote=SF100;337138]
LoL
Can you keep your drivel to yourself please
This threads confusing enough as it is


If true this would be quite useful. The HSBC tracker is the cheapest, too, I believe. I'm confused by the back and forth between you both here. SF100, are you saying there's no difference in terms of dealing / valuation points between trackers? It would be useful to be able to discuss this without the topic being lost amid the personal insults.



SF100 seems to have had a fall out with his boyfriend, poor lad. Taking out his frustration on here...

He is probably right, although chose to put it across in a cryptic and confusing way.

It had also been my understanding that the valuation point would come after the dealing time, as per other funds, but when I phoned up HSBC Asset Management and asked, was told that if I bought by noon, that I'd get the previous day's valuation. I even repeated this back to the person as I was surprised by it. She wasn't a native English speaker but seemed fluent enough and confident, and confirmed that my understanding was correct.

I have been unable to check this against my own dealing records because of the way the information is presented so I will phone them again tomorrow and check. I will report back what I am told - if my post was incorrect I will say so in a new post, and apologise in advance if it is so.

The valuation points of funds can vary. E.g. the Vaguard all cap fund has a dealing deadline of 11am but is priced at 9pm GMT that day when the US markets close. A lot can happen in that time. Still, the principle is usually forward pricing.


Would be good to clarify this. Must admit from my own experience I think orders I’ve placed before noon, and I actually usually place them by 9am using iWeb, get dealt at the forthcoming valuation and not at the previous day’s valuation. The price currently showing for this fund is 315.23 as at 10 March, I don’t think you’ll get that if you put an order in this morning.


I have spoken again to HSBC Asset Management this morning and can clarify the situation.

Interestingly, the person I spoke to began by saying the exact same thing as was previously stated, however, there was an important detail added once I probed. When they explain that "it will be yesterday's valuation", what they really mean is that they provide that price as an estimate of what you will pay - which is today's price if you place your order in time. They provide yesterday's as a guide only.

Now there is still some further, very useful detail here about this fund, which does partly corroborate my previous points.

The dealing deadline today is at noon (GMT).
The valuation point for today is at noon (GMT). (HSBC team will know what this is at 1530hrs)

If you order in time this morning, you will get the price determined at noon today.

This means two things:

A) You can get a price determined at a point far closer to your order time (theoretically at the same time or within minutes), compared to the likes of Vanguard's FTSE Global All Cap.

B) Because the US markets won't have opened yet at the valuation point, you are effectively capturing yesterday's closing point in the US market - which makes up the majority of the fund in this case. This does provide a degree of predictability. I know that if I order by noon today, even though the morning activity in Europe and elsewhere is positive, I'm probably going to get a better price than yesterday or last week because the US closed noticeably lower yesterday. I get the majority of yesterday's market moves in effect.

I hope this is of help. I think for the above reasons that the HSBC fund is, by the standards of other OEICs, of a more predictable nature. Again, the Vanguard equivalent will not be valued until 10 hours after your order and following a whole day of US trading after you placed your order. This represents a significant difference.

This is one of those dry topics that, once explored further, reveals some very useful information to serve the average investor. And it is virtually impossible to find it by using Google or AI.


Ok, so the price currently of 315.23 which was a slight increase on the day before did not take into account the big US drop yesterday…therefore todays midday valuation is nailed on much lower so if you’re buying it will be a favourable price to buy, but not to sell
1 user thanked Dunno for this post.
Robin B on 11/03/2025(UTC)
Peanuts
Posted: 11 March 2025 10:51:08(UTC)

Joined: 16/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 1,482

Rookie Investor;337224 wrote:
worship things and people like vanguard, Neil Woodford and Ray Dalio


Out of interest who is “worshipping” those people? Are you making 💩 up again Rookie 😉
L.P.
Posted: 11 March 2025 11:30:07(UTC)

Joined: 14/07/2023(UTC)
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NPH;337196 wrote:
About 3 weeks ago I started a thread on whether it was time to look beyond the global tracker, as Vanguard published research predicting lower returns from US large caps and given the US/large cap concentration risk even in global funds.
The response was that the research was 'toilet paper', that 100% risk on was the way to go, etc.
Now the US markets have fallen back to where they were about 6 months ago, and some people have liquidated their entire portfolios and are talking about a generational loss of wealth.
I'm starting to think this forum isn't the source of sober, helpful comment I was hoping for.


You can blame the forum or who you decided to listen to. Not everyone was as you stated above.

Never risk your wealth on the say so of a few anonymous individual on a forum like this. The only person to blame (if that’s what is going in here) is yourself.
1 user thanked L.P. for this post.
Guest on 11/03/2025(UTC)
Rookie Investor
Posted: 11 March 2025 12:06:15(UTC)

Joined: 09/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,087

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smg8;337208 wrote:

3. There was 1 poster who said it was toilet paper. The same poster beings up faecal matters quite regularly, often describing things or people as sh*t.


Yep, this was me who said all that, and I would say it again 1000x over and be proud of it.

Lets see if I remember who I called turds, ah that's right, good old Woodford and the almighty god himself Ray Dalio. There might be others, I am sure.

Woodford - I mean what a piece of shit, the guy so worshiped by many as being a god of investing, yet he failed completely at the very one thing one must not do with other people'e money - be reckless with it. And reckless he was, as I know all too well with having invested a decent chunk of my parents' money in his fund just before he turned "rogue". Luckily for my parents I saw his malfeasance, and got out about a year before it collapsed onto itself. He lost many people's life savings though unfortunately. And I suspect all because of his greed, and arrogance. What a piece of shit he is.

Ray Dalio - Ha! now this is an easy one. I mean look at the guy. A complete arrogant prick who portrays himself as god. And that's no over-exaggeration. I knew something was off about him, but this nice video clip explains all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfasR5p7YJI

As I say, and have said countless times on here - shit tends to rise to the top. The above two are no exception to the rule, and there are many many others just like them.

But no, we must respect every single person no matter what they do, even Hitler. Please gun me down, shout abuse at me for calling out pieces of shit. Because we must all worship and respect even the worst of humanity.
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