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Gifts from Surplus Income for IHT purposes
D Bergman
Posted: 23 August 2021 09:32:53(UTC)
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Money Spider,

Thanks for the very detailed account of how you keep the records. You seen to have thought this out more thoroughly than I have.

You state:

"4. I create a written declaration to HMRC (signed by my mother) at the end of each tax year stating the amount of gifts given from income and to whom they were made and the recipient's relation to the giver (they are family members). It also states that it is my mother's intention to continue this practice for future years. I hold this on file."

Do you send the declaration to HMRC every year, or just keep it on file for the future (presumably to back up the 403 form)?
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Steve U on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Money Spider
Posted: 23 August 2021 09:53:30(UTC)
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I have never sent anything to HMRC relating to any gifts that my mother has made. For these 'Gifts from Income' annual declarations (for want of a better title), I print it out each year and ask her to sign it. The signed copy is then kept in her tax file. As we have been doing this for about 12 years now, they slowly become redundant (after 7 years). Similarly columns/rows in the two spreadsheets slowly 'scroll into history'.

Essentially, I'm trying to create an 'audit trail' that will withstand any reasonable scrutiny by HMRC. I created similar declarations by my father, but they were never sent to HMRC. I submitted only the required IHT403 forms for probate - nothing else was ever required or asked for.

My intention is that, when the time arrives, I shall give the two spreadsheets (edited to the most recent 7 year period) to the solicitor whom we appoint to apply for probate (I shan't do all the work myself this time - there are more beneficiaries and I wish it to be done by an independent person).
3 users thanked Money Spider for this post.
Jimmy Page on 23/08/2021(UTC), D Bergman on 23/08/2021(UTC), Guest on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Steve U
Posted: 23 August 2021 09:57:20(UTC)
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A really interesting thread, thanks to all.

I have been making the maximum ISA contributions in my daughters name for a number of years. I had assumed that the only gifts that would ultimately matter for any potential IHT would be those made within 7 years of death, whenever that arises. So thanks to the information given on this thread I will look at providing records going forward to justify these "gifts".

However the form IHT403 starts at 1986 - are they really serious in wanting to know about all gifts since the 18th March 1986 ? How on earth would your executors be able to provide that information ?
Money Spider
Posted: 23 August 2021 10:07:34(UTC)
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@ Steve U
I can't answer your specific question. I suspect the IHT403 form dates back originally to 1986 and/or the law changed then.

However, in terms of IHT gifts, HMRC is only interested in gifts made within the 7 years before death.

BUT, there is another (obscure) rule concerning trusts (certainly Discounted Gift Trusts) which means that if a PET is made within 7 years of the trust being set up, then the '7 year clock' for the trust is reset to zero. So you could have to wait 14 years before the trust's IHT value finally tapers to zero.

I am not an accountant/tax advisor etc, so if you think this is relevant to you then DYOR, or consult a suitable advisor.
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Steve U on 23/08/2021(UTC), Jimmy Page on 23/08/2021(UTC), Tim D on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Alonso
Posted: 23 August 2021 10:19:40(UTC)
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D Bergman;182854 wrote:

The income rows included: self-employment income, State Pension, P2P interest, rent from let property, dividends from GIA, ISA dividends, VCT dividends, bank interest, bonds interest. It is important to note that only income, not capital gains, can be included.

If there are any queries I’ll be happy to try and answer them.


Thank you for posting this. It is very useful and an eye-opener. Just one question - how about the income from SIPP drawdown? If the gift was made from that, is that ok or would HMRC have problem with that?
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D Bergman on 23/08/2021(UTC)
andy mac
Posted: 23 August 2021 11:02:05(UTC)
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Joined: 12/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,264

Reading the above has raised another question
I have a credit card and wife and sons have cards on the account as well
All cards have the same account number
So both my sons will buy major items like computer mobile phone holidays season tickets etc on the card
( they advise me in advance)
Each will probably spend £10K - £15k+ per year which I end up paying
Where would this fit in the scheme of things
Is it a gift or as its all on my card and account it counts as my spending
Any thought or observations
Thanks in advance
Also a very informative thread
D Bergman
Posted: 23 August 2021 11:39:29(UTC)
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Alonso;182969 wrote:
D Bergman;182854 wrote:

The income rows included: self-employment income, State Pension, P2P interest, rent from let property, dividends from GIA, ISA dividends, VCT dividends, bank interest, bonds interest. It is important to note that only income, not capital gains, can be included.

If there are any queries I’ll be happy to try and answer them.


Thank you for posting this. It is very useful and an eye-opener. Just one question - how about the income from SIPP drawdown? If the gift was made from that, is that ok or would HMRC have problem with that?


I'm not 100% certain about drawdown, as some of it might be considered return of capital rather than income.
I have not been able to find any information about it - if the amount of drawdown makes most of the surplus income that you can give you might want to speak to a financial advisor.
Alternatively, you can just call HMRC and ask - you usually have to wait quite some time for them to answer but I've always found them (surprisingly) helpful.
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Alonso on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 23 August 2021 11:43:24(UTC)
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andy mac;182975 wrote:
Reading the above has raised another question
I have a credit card and wife and sons have cards on the account as well
All cards have the same account number
So both my sons will buy major items like computer mobile phone holidays season tickets etc on the card
( they advise me in advance)
Each will probably spend £10K - £15k+ per year which I end up paying
Where would this fit in the scheme of things
Is it a gift or as its all on my card and account it counts as my spending
Any thought or observations
Thanks in advance
Also a very informative thread


Sorry, but you are living in fantasy land if you think that wheeze somehow drives a coach-and-horses through HMRC's rules on gifting. It'd surely be considered as a gift from you to them, of the amount of their spending you pay for. (Other reliefs may apply, of course.)
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D Bergman on 23/08/2021(UTC)
D Bergman
Posted: 23 August 2021 11:47:08(UTC)
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Joined: 22/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,308

Thanks: 1686 times
Was thanked: 3536 time(s) in 1035 post(s)
andy mac;182975 wrote:
Reading the above has raised another question
I have a credit card and wife and sons have cards on the account as well
All cards have the same account number
So both my sons will buy major items like computer mobile phone holidays season tickets etc on the card
( they advise me in advance)
Each will probably spend £10K - £15k+ per year which I end up paying
Where would this fit in the scheme of things
Is it a gift or as its all on my card and account it counts as my spending
Any thought or observations
Thanks in advance
Also a very informative thread


If it is your credit card account, and you are the one paying the bills (as you state), then these payments are gifts, legally.

There is no difference between you giving them, say, £5K in cash to buy a holiday and them charging it to your credit card.

Where it starts getting into a grey area is if, for example, you book a big family holiday together.
We book a holiday cottage in the UK every year, and pay for it, but the extended family come and stay with us. The cottage would cost the same if they came or not - so should this be declared as a gift?

Then there is always the question of what you need to declare in practice...

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Tim D on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Money Spider
Posted: 23 August 2021 11:51:35(UTC)
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My view:
When you do your Self-Assessment (Tax Return) each year you list all your income which may be any/all of the following (and some other things):

Salary
State Pension
DB pension income/annuities.
SIPP Drawdown
Interest from UK Banks
Interest from Overseas sources
Interest from UT/OEICs
Interest from IT's
BTL/Property Fund/REIT Distributions
Dividends from Shares/ITs
Dividends from UT/OEICs
Other income

All of this is Income and is assessed for tax as such.

You might/will receive income which is non-taxed (from ISAs/VCTs etc.)

Gifts from Income is allowable from the surplus of income over regular expenditure
'Return of Capital' e.g. from Discounted Gift Trusts or from insurance bonds is NOT treated as income.

So, @Alonso SIPP Drawdown (which you will already have paid income tax on is allowed).

I agree with Tim_D regarding the credit card question - it's a gift to them.
3 users thanked Money Spider for this post.
D Bergman on 23/08/2021(UTC), Alonso on 23/08/2021(UTC), Tim D on 23/08/2021(UTC)
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