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A Stressful Activity
Sara G
Posted: 05 September 2023 18:35:08(UTC)

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
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NoMoreKickingCans;278264 wrote:


Now I am paying high rates for some professional help and the pro tells me you have to be very very firm with them. Of course individuals vary and a couple have been helpful and are equally frustrated with the builder.

You can’t charm a builder into doing an excellent job for you.


NMKC, may I ask what sort of professional is helping you, and where you found them?

1 user thanked Sara G for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 05/09/2023(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 05 September 2023 22:58:45(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
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A chartered surveyor that provides a building dispute mitigation type service and has some experience of dealing with recalcitrant builders treating builds as ‘hospital jobs’ etc.

I have frequently found the builder unwilling to listen to me their customer about build issues, but willing to follow the advice/direction of a qualified professional such as a structural engineer or architect. Even though I am saying exactly the same thing as these professionals. It demonstrates how my builders hold their customers in contempt and essentially see them as prey that can be lied to, ignored, or manipulated to suit their own agenda.

I suspect the builder recognises that should things escalate to a formal dispute or one party seek to terminate a contract, then the word and evidence of a qualified professional bound by their institute’s ethics is likely to carry a lot of weight with an arbitrator or court. When otherwise disputes can become just ‘he says, she says’ games between builder and customer with any arbitrator or judge unable to really tell where the truth lies. But that may be supposition on my part.

The surveyor has made a difference although at a high cost rate. They have a more structured approach although it is often difficult to understand exactly why the builder reacts differently to the same message just delivered through a different mouth. Needless to say it is very frustrating to be paying professionals at high rates to provide basic and obvious messages to builders that should know better.
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Sara G on 06/09/2023(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 05 September 2023 23:19:36(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
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I have a multitude of war stories of build issues caused by laziness, stupidity, short cuts, carelessness, negligence or ignorance by the builder/their contractors. I try to check discretely out of hours as much as I can, such as labels and markings on materials or once asking for a copy of a receipt/delivery note because they are prone to sometimes buy different spec cheaper materials. I threw away some out of date material left on site to ensure they couldn’t use it. I have also had to resort to just ordering some particular items that the architect specified that you can’t just buy off the shelf at every builders merchant myself. If they can’t buy it immediately at their own favoured merchant they invariably buy some makeshift or botched alternative.
2 users thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Sara G on 06/09/2023(UTC), Tim D on 11/09/2023(UTC)
DMPare
Posted: 11 September 2023 11:21:27(UTC)

Joined: 15/01/2020(UTC)
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Sara G;277897 wrote:
I agree with NMKC regarding using a project manager. I might have spared myself some of the hell I'm currently going through. True, it's an added cost, but I suspect they pay for themselves in terms of getting the project over the line in a reasonable timeframe, not to mention the preservation of one's mental health.

Interesting, yet depressing comments regarding new builds. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference between a good quality job and a poor one, which I'm sure is true of most people, and how the developers get away with it.


Sorry to hear you are both going through this, it sounds awful. This thread struck out to me as i remember writing 10 months ago to get a project manager as I have seen too many friends go through the same thing. I hope you both get your dream homes sooner rather than later, and your health can recover. My best friend has also deteriorated because of an ongoing large scale house project.

I am not much of a poster as life got in the way once COVID stopped, but I have followed both your successful investment journeys for a few years now so hope that side of things is still going well.
5 users thanked DMPare for this post.
xiang zou on 11/09/2023(UTC), NoMoreKickingCans on 11/09/2023(UTC), Sara G on 11/09/2023(UTC), Rookie Investor on 11/09/2023(UTC), Martina on 11/09/2023(UTC)
Sara G
Posted: 11 September 2023 15:30:06(UTC)

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
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DMPare;278772 wrote:
Sara G;277897 wrote:
I agree with NMKC regarding using a project manager. I might have spared myself some of the hell I'm currently going through. True, it's an added cost, but I suspect they pay for themselves in terms of getting the project over the line in a reasonable timeframe, not to mention the preservation of one's mental health.

Interesting, yet depressing comments regarding new builds. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference between a good quality job and a poor one, which I'm sure is true of most people, and how the developers get away with it.


Sorry to hear you are both going through this, it sounds awful. This thread struck out to me as i remember writing 10 months ago to get a project manager as I have seen too many friends go through the same thing. I hope you both get your dream homes sooner rather than later, and your health can recover. My best friend has also deteriorated because of an ongoing large scale house project.

I am not much of a poster as life got in the way once COVID stopped, but I have followed both your successful investment journeys for a few years now so hope that side of things is still going well.


Thank you for your kind thoughts DMP. I'm sorry to hear about your friends; it does seem to be a very common experience, sadly. I'm not sure I'm capable of making any sound investment decisions at the moment, so am leaving that side of things alone, mostly. I suppose the positive thing to say, is that my pf has enabled me to continue to withdraw an income, which I can increase to cover the costs of temporary accommodation, storage, and a PM (if I can find one at this late stage), and, if absolutely necessary, I will have sufficient capital from the sale of my current home to write off the monies spent to date, and start again with new builders if I have to, or sell up and take the loss.

NB there are many people who will think this is very much a 1% / 1st world problem, and to some extent it is, but it certainly takes its toll.
2 users thanked Sara G for this post.
Rookie Investor on 11/09/2023(UTC), DMPare on 12/09/2023(UTC)
Rookie Investor
Posted: 11 September 2023 16:27:03(UTC)

Joined: 09/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,088

Sara G;278795 wrote:
DMPare;278772 wrote:
Sara G;277897 wrote:
I agree with NMKC regarding using a project manager. I might have spared myself some of the hell I'm currently going through. True, it's an added cost, but I suspect they pay for themselves in terms of getting the project over the line in a reasonable timeframe, not to mention the preservation of one's mental health.

Interesting, yet depressing comments regarding new builds. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference between a good quality job and a poor one, which I'm sure is true of most people, and how the developers get away with it.


Sorry to hear you are both going through this, it sounds awful. This thread struck out to me as i remember writing 10 months ago to get a project manager as I have seen too many friends go through the same thing. I hope you both get your dream homes sooner rather than later, and your health can recover. My best friend has also deteriorated because of an ongoing large scale house project.

I am not much of a poster as life got in the way once COVID stopped, but I have followed both your successful investment journeys for a few years now so hope that side of things is still going well.


Thank you for your kind thoughts DMP. I'm sorry to hear about your friends; it does seem to be a very common experience, sadly. I'm not sure I'm capable of making any sound investment decisions at the moment, so am leaving that side of things alone, mostly. I suppose the positive thing to say, is that my pf has enabled me to continue to withdraw an income, which I can increase to cover the costs of temporary accommodation, storage, and a PM (if I can find one at this late stage), and, if absolutely necessary, I will have sufficient capital from the sale of my current home to write off the monies spent to date, and start again with new builders if I have to, or sell up and take the loss.

NB there are many people who will think this is very much a 1% / 1st world problem, and to some extent it is, but it certainly takes its toll.


Distasteful human traits and behavior is just as prevalent in 1st world countries, whether lower or upper class, as it is in 3rd world countries.
DMPare
Posted: 12 September 2023 14:29:02(UTC)

Joined: 15/01/2020(UTC)
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Thank you for your kind thoughts DMP. I'm sorry to hear about your friends; it does seem to be a very common experience, sadly. I'm not sure I'm capable of making any sound investment decisions at the moment, so am leaving that side of things alone, mostly. I suppose the positive thing to say, is that my pf has enabled me to continue to withdraw an income, which I can increase to cover the costs of temporary accommodation, storage, and a PM (if I can find one at this late stage), and, if absolutely necessary, I will have sufficient capital from the sale of my current home to write off the monies spent to date, and start again with new builders if I have to, or sell up and take the loss.

NB there are many people who will think this is very much a 1% / 1st world problem, and to some extent it is, but it certainly takes its toll.[/quote]

I hope you don't need to sell up as I recall you mentioning this was your family home that you are redoing? or did I get that wrong? I would suggest maybe seeing if a project manager would be willing to take on the project. Its not only from an oversight point of view but they have access to contractors/builders etc that a lay man wouldnt, who are incentivized to get the job done due to the repeat business. Only reason that I know this is because my sister is one, she offered to take on the job for my aforementioned friends who (fair enough) didn't want to given the additional cost and thought process they could oversee it themselves, despite having no experience. Unfortunately due to additional costs brought on by builders/delays/unforeseen events, a good project manager would have paid for itself at this point.
1 user thanked DMPare for this post.
Sara G on 13/09/2023(UTC)
Sara G
Posted: 13 September 2023 13:21:29(UTC)

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Thanks DMP.

Yes this is my family home, which does make it all the harder. Selling up would obviously be a last resort, if I get to the point where I can't cope with it anymore.

If I had to restart the project I would definitely try to get a PM. The disadvantage with hiring one now is that I still have a signed terms document with the current contractors, who are (supposedly) doing all the work, so I wouldn't get the benefit of the PM's contacts. Some sort of Surveyor as NMKC is using might be the way to go - someone who might be able to drive things forward and ask the right questions.

NB the reason I didn't hire a PM earlier is because the firm assigned an in-house PM. But what I should have done was get a PM in before even choosing a contractor, rather than relying on recommendations.
1 user thanked Sara G for this post.
DMPare on 14/09/2023(UTC)
Sara G
Posted: 14 September 2023 19:38:17(UTC)

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
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So a further development...

Having failed to establish contact with my builders by phone, email or text message, it seems they have gone for good, leaving me with an unfinished project and significantly out of pocket to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds, which I probably have no chance of seeing again. The website is still live, companies registration, mailing address etc. are unchanged, though, so I will pursue a claim if I can. I've sent a formal email requesting a response by the end of today, and referring to the contract terms. Went to the site to find various materials, tools and workboots, but of course no work ongoing, so I've changed the locks.

One of their suppliers told me that they have held back items of mine as they have failed to clear their account, and as more than half of the work has been completed (to a high standard), and some items were delivered just a week ago, I can only assume that they did intend to honour the contract, but have since had cash flow problems, although I am unclear whether it is just me or all of their clients who are affected - I suspect they were prioritising the bigger projects and I was the low hanging fruit.

Just when you think things can't get much worse... Still, at least now I can hopefully bring in a Project Manager to help me make better choices next time. Building Control are coming next week to assess the work done so far / remaining, and I will see what Trading Standards have to say.
1 user thanked Sara G for this post.
Raj K on 17/09/2023(UTC)
Jonathan Friend
Posted: 15 September 2023 08:16:51(UTC)

Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
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If anybody can figure this out and overcome it, Sara, it's you. At some point you'll be able to write a book or newspaper article about all you've learnt. Good move on changing the locks.

Could be worth engaging a solicitor to threaten court action? Might get their attention and put you ahead of others? Unless they've just gone bust in which case probably not worth bothering, however, that doesn't seem clear at this time. There's probably standard wording that you can find online to threaten it yourself if you don't want to engage a lawyer (use email, or if you use the post, ensure it is recorded delivery and marked as such on thr letter). I would probably resist terminating the contract until you're sure there's no other choice as that might be giving them a get out of jail free card.

I know it's easy for others to say, but this happens a lot and it will get better in time as you overcome the hurdles. Keep us posted and take care of yourself.
4 users thanked Jonathan Friend for this post.
Guest on 15/09/2023(UTC), NoMoreKickingCans on 15/09/2023(UTC), Sara G on 15/09/2023(UTC), SF100 on 15/09/2023(UTC)
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