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TJL
Posted: 06 January 2023 09:56:21(UTC)
#705

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It has been a popular holding by members of the Forum.
Have we all been wrong?
Seems so, the way the discussion is going.
But these decisions are so much simpler looking backwards!
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3 users thanked TJL for this post.
smg8 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Phil 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 06/01/2023(UTC)
Simon Martin
Posted: 06 January 2023 10:03:51(UTC)
#710

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Bought some more RCP at 1961, which brings my total cost price down to 1993..

I am also surprised why the media often classify this investment trust as a wealth presever, as it is nothing of the sort. Unfortunately, because of the media coverage you often see investors lump it together in the same basket as PNL / CGT / RICA, which is unfortunate.
It has shown itself to be quite volatile during market weakness after sitting on quite a premium not so long ago.

I am in a similar situation with SMG8 as this does not really fit long term in my portfolio due to its volatility and I generally try to avoid short term trades nowadays so as to preserve my sanity. This one was too good to pass up on, however if there is continued price weakness then it will just become a medium term holding for me, I can wait.
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11 users thanked Simon Martin for this post.
dlp6666 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mostly Retired on 06/01/2023(UTC), Sheerman on 06/01/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 06/01/2023(UTC), smg8 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Rocca Billy on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mr GL on 06/01/2023(UTC), Thrugelmir on 06/01/2023(UTC), Logic Prophets on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), Low Returns on 06/01/2023(UTC)
smg8
Posted: 06 January 2023 10:07:12(UTC)
#706

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TJL;252749 wrote:
It has been a popular holding by members of the Forum.
Have we all been wrong?
Seems so, the way the discussion is going.
But these decisions are so much simpler looking backwards!


Agree that hindsight investing is easy!

I don't necessarily think people have been wrong per se, I just think we all assess investments completely differently and what suits one investors thesis/appetite/analysis may not suit another investors.

I think people may look at what I hold and think "what's he doing with that", and that's fine - what works for investor A is different to what works for investor B.

As a side note though, I do wonder how much ongoing faith to RIT is garnered by the branding - the fact it's Rothschild, the fancy lingo about it being positioned as this high end complex blend of wealth preservation and capital growth, etc.

Put it another way - if this was a trust run by Premier Miton or Invesco with the same fees and the same performance for 5/10/15 years would it be as popular?
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10 users thanked smg8 for this post.
Mostly Retired on 06/01/2023(UTC), Alfa 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Phil 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 06/01/2023(UTC), dlp6666 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Robin on 06/01/2023(UTC), Tim D on 06/01/2023(UTC), Aminatidi on 06/01/2023(UTC), Logic Prophets on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC)
Mostly Retired
Posted: 06 January 2023 10:16:24(UTC)
#711

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Deciding to be contrarian today: I have held RIT since 2009. It has been "middle of the road" in my investment book and is at a 6.25% allocation out of my "market investments" book.

I invested not as a "wealth preserver" but as an access route to areas where I could not invest myself in any convenient way (Caledonia is in the same camp, though I do not hold it). I liked, and still do like, IT's where there is "family money" involved.

Whilst the last few days have been horrible for the share price, and damaged some of my sentiment, I am sticking with the holding. The original investment thesis still holds, in spite of their portfolio investement shifts and I am not inclined to drop a stock for a couple of days rubbish performance when the holding is meant to be "for life" (for me at least!). I do feel deep down that Mr Market has been a little overly harsh on RIT.

Will I sell? This is entirely possible, but not today and only as part of a wider portfolio reshaping exercise that is due in this first quarter. New facts and revelations may of course change my views, I am nothing if not flexible :)

Will I be wrong? Based on my investing track record, I reckon that I am on a 50/50 chance here :)

My investing "career" has given me a surprising taste for humble pie and will happily eat another slice if it all turns to " unwanted organic waste".
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12 users thanked Mostly Retired for this post.
Phil 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), smg8 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 06/01/2023(UTC), dlp6666 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Keith Hilton on 06/01/2023(UTC), Robin on 06/01/2023(UTC), Tim D on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mr GL on 06/01/2023(UTC), Logic Prophets on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), Low Returns on 06/01/2023(UTC), John Bran on 06/01/2023(UTC)
Robin
Posted: 06 January 2023 10:57:38(UTC)
#697

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smg8;252742 wrote:
TJL;252711 wrote:
Long term obviously means different things to different people.
Despite RIT's short term volatility and potential tradeability, is it a long term hold?
That's the bottom line.


With a fee structure meaning they keep circa 80% of any gains, any outperformance would need to be significant for a long term investor to see net benefit versus alternative options.

The last 3 years (short term of course, but a volatile period during which something like this should theoretically come into it's own) has seen a total return to investors of -0.36% annualised, whilst being charged 5% ish p/annum for the privilege. Zooming out to 5 years we have 1.82% returns. Over 15 years it's behind Capital Gearing Trust (6.07% vs 6.84%) with quite a bit more volatility.

I was educated by MR GL on the trading potential of this investment and have seen first hand him and others successfully make money in the short term by trading RCP (kudos to the traders and I hope their success continues - clearly disconnect between NAV and SP is presenting them some opportunities).

For me personally I see something that over the last 10 or so years has returned far less than 100% equities in the good times, and dropped far more than 100% equities in the bad.

That doesn't align with what I want from my investments, though again to be clear (and avoid acrimony with those assessing it differently) accept this presents opportunities to others.




Very fair comments as ever. This last year has smashed RCP, the same period in the year prior it offered double the return of the Vanguard FTSE Global All-cap. 11% per annum from inception (probably less now!) isn't bad. So I take the points, but think of all offers this is not one to view over the short term, trading aside.

Edit - link to article

https://citywire.com/inv...witches-to-sell/a2405968
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Mostly Retired on 06/01/2023(UTC), smg8 on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), Low Returns on 06/01/2023(UTC)
Mr GL
Posted: 06 January 2023 15:37:04(UTC)
#712

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added 3% of AUM to Rit this morning at 1975p ish - a 19.5% discount to the Nov NAV...

left
11.8% RIT Capital RCP
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Markkus on 06/01/2023(UTC), Big boy on 06/01/2023(UTC), Strangways on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), Robin on 06/01/2023(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 06 January 2023 16:43:24(UTC)
#707

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
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TJL;252749 wrote:
It has been a popular holding by members of the Forum.
Have we all been wrong?
Seems so, the way the discussion is going.
But these decisions are so much simpler looking backwards!


Always worth revisiting what drew you to invest into a stock in the first place. There's many to chose from. Why this above other ideas?

Bottom line is that their are only two prices that matter. What you buy at and what you sell at. Annual performance figures provide an incomplete story.
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8 users thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
Mr GL on 06/01/2023(UTC), Logic Prophets on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mostly Retired on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 06/01/2023(UTC), Tim D on 06/01/2023(UTC), Phil 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Guest on 07/01/2023(UTC)
Mr GL
Posted: 06 January 2023 16:51:06(UTC)
#708

Joined: 18/10/2020(UTC)
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Thrugelmir;252805 wrote:

Bottom line is that their are only two prices that matter. What you buy at and what you sell at. Annual performance figures provide an incomplete story.


so true...
mid dec was buying some at/above/below 2000p (I was long 18% AUM then).... on weds was selling some at 2200p ish (and was down to 5% AUM) and today I was buying at 1976/4p and it closed 2060p bid and I now have 12% AUM in it....

hell of a round trip over only a few weeks...
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7 users thanked Mr GL for this post.
Logic Prophets on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mostly Retired on 06/01/2023(UTC), William P on 06/01/2023(UTC), mdss68 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Phil 2 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Rocca Billy on 06/01/2023(UTC), dlp6666 on 07/01/2023(UTC)
Robin
Posted: 06 January 2023 19:11:46(UTC)
#709

Joined: 06/07/2009(UTC)
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Mr GL;252806 wrote:
Thrugelmir;252805 wrote:

Bottom line is that their are only two prices that matter. What you buy at and what you sell at. Annual performance figures provide an incomplete story.


so true...
mid dec was buying some at/above/below 2000p (I was long 18% AUM then).... on weds was selling some at 2200p ish (and was down to 5% AUM) and today I was buying at 1976/4p and it closed 2060p bid and I now have 12% AUM in it....

hell of a round trip over only a few weeks...


Those two things need not always be within 30 days of one another.
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3 users thanked Robin for this post.
SF100 on 06/01/2023(UTC), Mr GL on 07/01/2023(UTC), William P on 07/01/2023(UTC)
John Bran
Posted: 06 January 2023 21:02:51(UTC)
#700

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L. Richardson;252735 wrote:
out of interest where are you guys buying/holding/trading RCP? I've just looked at the costs on Hargreaves L and the average annual charge is 5-53%. Seems quite punchy

https://www.hl.co.uk/sha...s-plc-ordinary-gbp/costs

There is no annual charge in general account.
If only buying share and etf then the maximum is 0.45% with a maximum of £45 in an isa.
In a sipp it's o.45% upto £200,000 (not sure its £200,000)
Opps forgot the stockbroker fees, can't remember I think it's £11.75 to buy and sell.
I do have a general account and SIPP at Hargreaves Lansdown and general account and isa at freetrade.
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1 user thanked John Bran for this post.
Peanuts on 08/01/2023(UTC)
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