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Gifts from Surplus Income for IHT purposes
Alonso
Posted: 23 August 2021 15:24:42(UTC)
#18

Joined: 11/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 61

D Bergman;182989 wrote:
D Bergman;182981 wrote:
Alonso;182969 wrote:


Thank you for posting this. It is very useful and an eye-opener. Just one question - how about the income from SIPP drawdown? If the gift was made from that, is that ok or would HMRC have problem with that?


I'm not 100% certain about drawdown, as some of it might be considered return of capital rather than income.
I have not been able to find any information about it - if the amount of drawdown makes most of the surplus income that you can give you might want to speak to a financial advisor.
Alternatively, you can just call HMRC and ask - you usually have to wait quite some time for them to answer but I've always found them (surprisingly) helpful.


Checking online I came across:

http://www.charlwoodleig...gifting%20exemption.pdf

Page 2 deals with this question:
"HMRC have confirmed to us that regular withdrawals from flexible pensions, irrespective of
the levels withdrawn and whether taken as tax free cash or taxable income, always count as
income for the purpose of the IHT exemption."

(But I would still check with HMRC).



Thanks. It's interesting that 'tax free cash' also counts as income for this purpose.
Jimmy Page
Posted: 23 August 2021 15:43:57(UTC)
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NoMoreKickingCans;183003 wrote:
Pensions can be left IHT free anyway.
Why would you draw more pension, paying income tax on it, to then gift to a child from surplus income ?
To give earlier ? To keep the pension capital below the LTA ?

I 'went into drawdown' as the pension capital approached LTA a few years ago. (BCE 1) and took the 25% tax free lump sum. Too tempting to leave it vulnerable to political risk.
For a variety of reasons no income was taken from it until 7 years ago and the pension healed itself in the interim.
Since income drawdown started, the capital value has been subject to market growth in broadish equilibrium with income withdrawals.
The next BCE will occur at age 75 (BCE 5a) at which point a snapshot capital value, taking account of capital growth as a percentage of LTA, will again be assessed against whatever LTA then applies.

The relatively stable equilibrium of growth against income withdrawn has so far kept capital value reasonably close to LTA and so, accepting the unknowns of market performance, Rishi's rule- changing, and his repression of the income tax threshold ( I don't want to pay 40% ta on any of the income) it is possible BCE 5a will not hurt too much.
The approximate equilibrium might even benefit from advantageous changes - above inflation rise in tax thresholds or LTA etc, but ...maybe not.

fwiw, so far the pot has grown slowly but surely in size due restrained withdrawals (avoiding 40% income tax), but that can change of course.

That was the thinking but no claims to it being at all logical, wise, or even terribly coherent.
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D Bergman on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Money Spider
Posted: 23 August 2021 16:20:14(UTC)
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@ Jimmy Page

If you don't already have some level of 'Fixed Protection' to your SIPP, you may be able to apply for Fixed Protection 2016 which would give you a LTA of £1.25M, rather than the current value (£1.073M). You will need to do some research re. your eligibility if this is relevant and appeals to you.

The post-2015 pensions rules are pretty flexible. I have a level of Fixed Protection on my SIPP. I made the first crystallisation at the beginning of 2015 and I have made 4 more since then. My SIPP Drawdown account is now about 115% of the value that was crystallised (net of tax-free cash) and I have drawn down an amount each year. I have crystallised about 50% of my LTA so far and my plan is to crystallise more tranches as the uncrystallised SIPP account grows. The objective being to maximise the tax-free cash that I can take. The biggest risk would be if the 25% tax-free cash element was withdrawn.

Edit: re-reading your post and the dates of your BCE1 and you say you were close to LTA, then I don't think the above applies to you, but someone else reading might benefit....
1 user thanked Money Spider for this post.
Jimmy Page on 23/08/2021(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 23 August 2021 16:28:27(UTC)
#34

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Quote:
Fair point and I can see what you are saying - though, sometimes, there could be a valid reason like paying for a deposit on first property or a big wedding gift or paying off university fee debt. (Debate about whether one should or not is a different thread!).


But taking big lump sums to then gift would presumably not be ‘regular pension withdrawals’ !?
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Alonso on 23/08/2021(UTC)
Alonso
Posted: 24 August 2021 08:32:41(UTC)
#35

Joined: 11/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 61

While we are on this topic, how does donation/contribution to charities work? It is a small amount (between £1k-£2k pa) to education charity now (to schools), but want to increase this in couple of years (to around £5k pa).
D Bergman
Posted: 24 August 2021 08:40:38(UTC)
#36

Joined: 22/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,308

Alonso;183098 wrote:
While we are on this topic, how does donation/contribution to charities work? It is a small amount (between £1k-£2k pa) to education charity now (to schools), but want to increase this in couple of years (to around £5k pa).


What is your question about these contributions?
Alonso
Posted: 24 August 2021 09:04:41(UTC)
#37

Joined: 11/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 61

D Bergman;183099 wrote:
Alonso;183098 wrote:
While we are on this topic, how does donation/contribution to charities work? It is a small amount (between £1k-£2k pa) to education charity now (to schools), but want to increase this in couple of years (to around £5k pa).


What is your question about these contributions?


Do we need to keep a proper record of all the donations (like receipts, emails etc...) for HMRC? Top of my head, I don't recall how does HMRC treat any money given to charities for IHT, so any info will be greatly appreciated.
D Bergman
Posted: 24 August 2021 09:20:06(UTC)
#38

Joined: 22/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,308

Alonso;183103 wrote:
D Bergman;183099 wrote:
Alonso;183098 wrote:
While we are on this topic, how does donation/contribution to charities work? It is a small amount (between £1k-£2k pa) to education charity now (to schools), but want to increase this in couple of years (to around £5k pa).


What is your question about these contributions?


Do we need to keep a proper record of all the donations (like receipts, emails etc...) for HMRC? Top of my head, I don't recall how does HMRC treat any money given to charities for IHT, so any info will be greatly appreciated.


Any contributions to registered charities have nothing to do with IHT, whether donated during the lifetime of the benefactor or in their will.
If you are donating large sums I would suggest keeping receipts.

(I am currently an executer of a friend's will, who left her entire estate of about £750K to charities, so there is no IHT payable. The charities are being a bit of a pain to deal with, but HMRC quickly confirmed that no tax is due).

I assume that you are aware of donating via Gift Aid to increase the value of your donation and potentially to recover higher-rate income tax (if applicable).

Edit: Nothing to do with this thread, but for anyone planning to leave donations to charities in their will, be advised that leaving proportions of your estate to various charities can cause major hassles for your executers. It is much easier to leave set amounts to charities, as they then have no interest in other details of the estate.
3 users thanked D Bergman for this post.
Tim D on 24/08/2021(UTC), Alonso on 24/08/2021(UTC), Baron Wuffet on 27/08/2021(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 24 August 2021 09:43:31(UTC)
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Maybe worth noting that, since 2012, if you leave at least 10% of your estate to charity then the IHT rate on the rest of the estate is reduced from 40% to 36%.

Nice piece at https://www.lawscot.org....acies-the-10-conundrum/ on what a nightmare this creates for drafting wills where the testator wants to donate just enough to get over that hurdle, but estate valuation is of course quite volatile. Also notes the unintended consequence that folks might choose to hang onto funds which would have otherwise been donated during their lifetime, to build up such a 10% donation pot for their demise instead. Don't know if that's subsequently been proven to be a real thing or not.

3 users thanked Tim D for this post.
D Bergman on 24/08/2021(UTC), NoMoreKickingCans on 24/08/2021(UTC), Alonso on 24/08/2021(UTC)
D Bergman
Posted: 24 August 2021 09:57:25(UTC)
#41

Joined: 22/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,308

Adding to Tim D's post, I have been dealing for close to a year with a late friend's will.

She left all her estate to charities, but unfortunately in various percentages of her estate (9 charities, with percentages ranging from 5% to 40%). My solicitor groaned at this, because every charity has the right to question everything we do (such as the cost of the wake, the sums achieved by selling her possessions, the cost of clearing her flat, etc).
If all the minor beneficiaries had been left fixed sums, with only one charity as the residuary beneficiary, only that one would have had to receive reports and grant authorisations for expenses.

Obviously a problem is that we do not know, when drawing up a will, what the final size of the estate will be, but leaving just percentages as our friend did has caused endless headaches and has also increased the solicitor's bills considerably.

Thanks, Tim, for that article as I have been thinking about the 10% charity idea.
2 users thanked D Bergman for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 24/08/2021(UTC), Tim D on 24/08/2021(UTC)
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